Host Scott Eggert and Creative Director Josh McCowen discuss the evolving creative landscape over the last decade, noting the massive shift from print design to digital platforms like social media and websites. While embracing the speed of modern tools like Figma and Photoshop, Josh stresses the continued importance of fundamental creative strategy and manual processes, such as sketching on paper, to generate recall and meaningful ideas. The conversation zeroes in on the opportunities and challenges posed by the modern social environment, using the Cracker Barrel rebrand as an example of how public opinion can impact even established brands. They dive deep into the pervasive influence of AI (like Midjourney), which Josh uses as a technical and coding partner, but caution that current AI tends to produce “remarkably average” content and lacks the essential strategic perspective needed for truly great branding. Finally, Josh shares his work on his new venture, A Remembered Life, and wraps up the discussion with a quick “Keep or Kill” lightning round, where he keeps most design concepts but kills Papyrus and direct mail.
Key Topics:
- The Evolution of Design and Marketing
- The Importance of Manual Creative Process
- The Impact of Social Media on Branding
- Defining a Brand
- AI’s Role in Creative Workflow
- Limitations and Caveats of AI
- The Future of Technology in Business
- Entrepreneurship and New Ventures
- “Keep or Kill” Design Concepts
- Personal Creative Pursuits
Transcript:
Scott: All right. So what does it take to build a brand that lasts? We’re exploring that very question today on the MK ten podcast. I’m the host, Scott Agar, president of MK tag. And I couldn’t think of a better person to discuss this with. And uh, our, my friend and our creative director, Josh McCown, uh, who’s been, uh, fostering, uh, innovation and working with collaborative, uh, teams from doing global brand launches and innovative digital experiences, his work has consistently pushed the boundaries. I can’t wait to dive into the story of creative evolution with him. Josh, it’s great to have you here. Welcome to Mk2 G10. This is a series you put together just to celebrate our ten years, and Josh is a cool part of that story. Cool. Glad to be here. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, since we’re, you know, ten years, uh, for our outfit here, we, like, we’ve been kind of talking to, uh, you know, everybody on our team, uh, and some previous team members, kind of about what has changed in your tenure, uh, as a designer, what’s something that, uh, you know, you used to do that would just seem archaic, uh, if you were to, you know, pick up that tool or technology and use it today.
Josh: I mean, I think the biggest thing for me is, as broadly as it sounds, print, um, which I desperately miss. Um, certainly there’s large brands that still do a lot of print work and, you know, you still see print, but, you know, working with modern tech startups today, a lot of companies, they’re all digital. It’s social media, it’s a website, it’s email. And that’s as far as they take their brand and marketing touchpoints. Obviously brick and mortar shops, things like that, restaurants, you know, anything where there’s a human in person, there’s still going to be some type of collateral. But yeah, I, I wish, I wish more brands to still did print design. Um, that was my initial, uh, endeavor into the design world was illustration and building brochures and annual reports and things like that. Um, but today we we pretty much just do websites and social media and applications and, you know, much more of a digital world these days.
Scott: Yeah. Like is there. Are there any tools or a process that you do now that’s just like 180 degrees from how you used to do things?
Josh: Um, I’m sure there is. I’m trying to think if there is something that we did like so manually that I got replaced. I mean, obviously we’ll touch on it as the conversation goes on, but AI is changing some of our kind of baseline processes. But I think from a kind of fundamental creative process understanding, uh, discovery process, a lot of the things that we do, or at least I do, I try to kind of maintain some of those best practices from, from before because they weren’t, you know, the tools can help us move faster, but they’re not going to answer our questions. They’re not going to know our insight. They’re not going to be able to pull out some of the things that, you know, you and I and some other, uh, industry people that have been in the around as long as we have the knowledge that we have. So, you know, I maybe don’t sketch as much as I used to on paper, um, when I’m working on maybe collateral or logos and things like that. But, you know, we still use Photoshop. Maybe not as much as we used to in the past. Um, but yeah, I, I can’t think of anything, like, so obvious. And maybe that’s the problem. Maybe there’s something that just it just disappeared, you know, over time. So inherently. But yeah, I, I still love a lot of the manual touchpoints of, of the work. You know, I think that’s one of the things that I enjoy doing the most is the actual creative work, not just the management of it or the direction of it, but actually getting my hands dirty. Um, so yeah, I think. I think my process is maybe the same for the most part. You know, maybe sped up with technology.
Scott: Yeah. You mentioned, uh, sketching, which is interesting. Um, probably ten years ago. Right? Like we all thought, oh, we’re all going to start doing that on tablets. Like, did that ever work for you? Did you ever use a digital thing to draw?
Josh: I, I played around with it. You know, I think over the years I became less of an illustrator and and more of a technology creative, I guess. So for me personally, it didn’t become like my go to source. I do know a lot of illustrators and a lot of creatives that live by their iPad and their pencil, and, you know, that’s how they work. For me, I still like the tactile feeling of a pen on a piece of paper and like pulling out a notebook and flipping the pages and, you know, having that, that sense of, I don’t know, realism, I guess. Um, but yeah, I think it all depends on your, your, I guess, the outcomes that you’re trying to do and your kind of personal flavor. But for me, I still I still do sketch out layouts. I still sketch out logos, I sketch out ideas. Um, but yeah, I have like just a bunch of notebooks or loose pieces of paper on my desk that I grab and throw out an idea real quick before I move into something digital, like Figma or Photoshop. Right? It’s it’s funny. Uh, I’m not a digital, you know, tablet user. And that’s partly because my handwriting is horrible, whether it’s on paper or digital.
Scott: Uh, it seems like digital might be worse, but the products that I have seen, uh, you know, the remarkable and the, I think like Kindles got one and it it’s funny how the thing they try to assimilate is the friction, the friction of the lead. And the paper is just so hard to recreate.
Josh: Um. Yeah, they have a bunch of different like tips that you can add to the like the pencil devices and things like that to create a little bit of drag, because if it’s too smooth, you can’t get the same lines and things like that. One of the reasons why I like using, whether it’s digital or not, analog or digital, when I write down information, it helps me recall that information. It’s like a learning technique versus me typing something. If I’m typing something, my brain doesn’t retain that information as much as if I actually write out a note. So if I go into meetings or conferences, I always have a notepad or a notebook, and I use it to write down because at least for me, it helps me lock in that information versus just typing something out. So when I’m working on a concept or an idea or a brand strategy, writing actually helps me in that process of forming ideas and understanding that information more versus just simply typing something out. So again, I’m not an illustrator, but this toy resonates with me.
Scott: A good friend of mine that’s probably close to 20 years ago, but I still like to be paper books. I go back and forth. I do own some Kindles, but, um, but I like the book. And a friend of mine, you know, again, 20 years ago, bought me a pen, but it was like a blue pen, Right. Big deal. But it was a nice, uh, panic brand, but, uh, but it was that, like, kind of this whole reinforcement of, like, the color of the of the writing. So the writing, you know, whether it’s in a book or circling something or writing a note next to it and then the like, the activity with the hand and the color is a, it generates recall, uh, which is just amazing. And so till this day, I do a pad of paper on my desk and a blue pen so I can write down notes. And, and when I’m recalling it, I’m, I’m thinking about my hand moving and how I wrote it, and that’s that’s, uh.
Josh: Yeah, it’s it’s tactile. It makes your brain think about it in a different way. Um, I didn’t know about the color. That’s that’s a good note. I’ll have to start using blue pens more. Um, yeah. But yeah, no, I, I, I still enjoy that. I don’t do that enough. Like, I, you know, again, I live my life on this computer almost 24 over seven. So when I’m working, I just jot down notes and everything here. But if I want to focus and try to unlock some creativity and some new way of thinking, I will try to step away from the computer, whether I’m just sitting next to it or not, but then use, you know, some pen and paper to to jot down notes, to draw ideas to, to change my mind, set my mind flow into a different, different way.
Scott: Right. So zooming in on today. Uh, like what? What do you see as like, the biggest opportunities and challenges for creative teams, like in the, you know, shifting landscape?
Josh: Yeah, there’s a lot. Um, again, AI will will pin that to have that discussion because that’s that’s obviously a big thing right now. Um, but I think a lot of it has to do with just the, the social awareness that we live in today. This, this social bubble that we’ve created, not as individuals or as business, but just culturally. So anything you do is really kind of at the whim of the audience, whether they’re your audience or not. Like, you could have a, a business, a brand, a focus point for a very particular audience, and it could go way beyond that just because of public opinion or a perception. And that’s challenging. You know, I think a good example is the Cracker Barrel fiasco, um, where they rebranded like you’re allowed to do. Like every organization has the opportunity to refine and adjust and move forward in a different direction. But because of the public perception of that change, they essentially just stopped. They just said, okay, we’re sorry we did something wrong and they didn’t do anything wrong. Whether or not it was a successful rebrand, you know, and you could say it wasn’t successful because of the public discourse around it and what it was. But I don’t necessarily agree with that as a creative. I don’t think, you know, the opinion of what it looks like is very opinionated, and I don’t think it was bad. I’m sure there was things that I would do differently as as a designer and as a creative and a brand guy. But I almost feel bad for the team around that because of how it was received, because of just the social network bubble that we live in. Um, I think that is probably one of the larger things that a small thing that you do as an organization can be zoomed in on and magnified in ways that you would never, ever expect it to be or even have the opportunity. You know, a few years ago, you know, ten, 15 or 20 years ago where people didn’t care if your logo changed, you’re like, oh, this is new. And then that’d be kind of the end of it. So yeah, I think that’s a big challenge for teams.
Scott: Right. Yeah. And that I think that’s a great example of the Cracker Barrel about how you do have to kind of play a game of like, how’s our audience going to read into this? Like, and so I think having a story that goes well here, here’s why and here’s the direction we’re going, um, versus, uh, you know, the CEO went on like morning, just some morning shows and, and did this big unveiling. And everybody’s so happy with it. And it’s great. And it’s the new thing. Um, without some sort of, uh, you know, again, tying it back to the story, you know, this is, this is what we were going and and the logo is, you know, there seemed to be like a question in this case of, is it a barrel on its side? Like, what is it? What what is this shape that the the word mark is just slapped on or what does it mean? Yeah. Um, and I felt like a little bit of that context, if that was the context, would have helped them tell that story. Um, and I, I, I do have a harsher opinion of, of, of the outcome, not because I’m a huge fan of Cracker Barrel, but of course I’ve been there, but, um. But it just felt like it felt like a brand that had gone in a direction that just wasn’t being driven by anybody with a point of view. Like, it just was so like kind of vanilla, uh, boring. And and they were coming from, you know, kind of a, a time and a place their, their logo, uh, which again, was made like in the 50s or 60s to look like it was from the 30s. So, like, it kind of never they never were from the era they were portraying. Yeah. But, uh, but still, uh, they, they just didn’t, uh, it just felt boring. It felt void of, uh, any sort of creativity at all and or or opinion. Right. And you just, I think, uh, a good brand and good creative has a perspective, a point of view that they’re trying to, you know, communicate like, here’s our brand. And this just felt like the ultimate I think I texted you and I said, this is like Canva, you know, oh, I’ve gone overboard. Like, oh, let’s just grab this shape and grab this logo and slap it on there. There was no depth or shadow or, uh, you know, any life to it. It just was like, and, you know, and and to to those points like a brand is not a logo like that one tiny mark does not represent a brand as a whole. The in this case restaurants and decor.
Josh: And I mean, I saw a bigger case study and it wasn’t just a logo like they did a full quote unquote rebrand of their visual identity. But your point about what’s the story? You have to be able to tie those two together. And I didn’t look at it enough to even know if they did that or not. But, you know, a as a, as a kind of counterpoint to like the Cracker Barrel Airbnb, which, I mean, I’m assuming most people know Airbnb rebranded or redid their logo. I don’t know, at some point in the past, maybe ten years ago, maybe five years ago, something like that. And when they launched the logo, it was kind of being flamed online that it looked like something. And I won’t go into the details of what it looked like, but. They didn’t change it. They stayed true to like, no, we think this is the right direction and no one even remembers that they changed the logo like it is what it is. So that’s the I think that’s the, the, the, the thing I have the problem with is that the change to that they made to make the new brand ideally or seemingly, should be strategic and thoughtful and decision based, that this is the we’re actually we’re going in the decision to go back to their old one is reactionary because of the way that people said. And again, I’m not a shareholder. I’m not the CEO. I mean, if they’re losing millions of dollars, it’s it’s easy for me to say, why, just keep it, stay strong. But, you know, if they’re losing money, then it’s it’s it’s they have to make a decision. Like, is it worth it to move in this direction? Um, another good example is, is Amazon Prime just updated their logo, but no one even knows that they did it because it’s so tiny. It’s an evolution of a change. It’s not a rebrand. They simply refine some elements of it. They updated a little bit of coloring behind it, and it’s no one would even really know the difference if they unless you put the two next to each other. So, you know, in terms of branding and rebranding and evolution of brands, you do have to be strategic about it, that if you do think you have a large audience or a very kind of a trust, or there’s the the people really believe that you’re a very particular thing when you change it so drastically. People hate change. They just want things to say the same. Always in forever. So when something’s different, whether it really affects them or not, they’re going to have an opinion on it. So it’s it is something you have to be mindful of. Um. Especially in this day and age because of how much that information spreads. An opinion is just, I don’t know, so opinionated, I don’t know. That’s probably not a good way to say it. But, you know, I again, I feel bad for the team because I think overall they were moving in a direction they felt was right. And again, was there a story behind it that that is a really good point, because I do think as a brand, it’s not just the visual, it’s the visual. It’s how you talk, it’s what you say. It’s where you show up. It’s who you who you discourse with. So yeah, it’s it’s just the world we live in these days. It’s tricky.
Scott: Well it is I mean, this this all goes to also in this particular case is who owns a brand. Right. And so part, part of what you’re, uh, rightly pointing out is that a brand isn’t just the icon. It’s not the it’s not just the logo. The picture, um, and in a indelible part of the brand is what do people think of your organization? What do they, uh, what they think of when they think of you? And if it is nostalgia, a giant part of your brand identity?
Josh: Yeah. In this case, it was, um, how you evolve that brand, if it doesn’t reflect or, you know, uh, is not compatible with people’s image of you, uh, then there can be a huge disconnect, which I think is primarily what we were seeing. And then, you know. The misfortune of them just there. They’re having to interpret your. Motivations. And in this case, everybody leapt to horrible conclusions.
Scott: Yeah. Uh, rightfully or wrongly. And, uh, and so again, that’s just, I think what the brand stories got to come in and absolutely what you’re doing not, you know, Airbnb or Prime may not need to do that, but, uh, it’s why you mentioned it. Uh, Prime, because it made me remember, like, I spent ten years or so ago, but, uh, American Express, like, we did their logo. And it’s one of these great case studies where I think they shelled out, like, $1 million to pentagram, um, which, you know, I’ve got if they can get those kind of fees, God bless them. But, um, and like, all they did was like change, like the kerning and, you know, like, you literally couldn’t see the difference. But yeah, it was it was one of those like, we’re updating it for the digital age. You’re like, I can’t yeah I don’t know what you can’t.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s a tricky thing. And again I think a lot of it you know to. The brand as a whole is not a logo. It’s not a color. It’s it’s everything. It’s it’s how you speak. It’s who you speak it to. It’s how you interact. So it’s it’s more than just that, but it’s so easy when to to latch on to something visual just because we’re visual creatures. And that’s something you can easily share on social media. I don’t know if they have a story behind it, but even if they did, people probably just wouldn’t share it in the first place. So again, it’s just you’re you’re you’re up against it because if you’re changing something so drastically, it’s it’s a challenge. And I would say that you have to either be ready for that discourse, that ready for that, that oh, we hate it. It’s like, that’s okay. You can hate it. It’s fine. We think this is the right decision and we’re going to move forward in this way. But that’s tricky. I mean, you know, I’m sure the designers working on this project have no bearing on whether or not, you know, those decisions are being made, you know, higher up in the organization. So yeah, it’s tricky. It’s a it’s a tricky thing.
Scott: Yeah. Tell me what. Like what would you rather work on. Do you, would you, do you like, uh do you like launching new brands. Would you rather do a big a rebrand, uh, what you’re feeling or working on, like brands that are just being iterative and making those little changes. What are your favorite types of projects to work on?
Josh: Um, yes. Uh, yes, I, I enjoy most of those aspects. I think the exciting creative projects are kind of twofold. They they’re either start at the beginning or they’re a really established brand that has capability to push the boundaries. I think the brands that are right in the middle that maybe don’t have a really strong brand or trying to figure out, but they don’t want to change anything. Those are the more challenging projects, not necessarily like less fulfilling or rewarding or fun, but if you’re just making small, iterative changes, unless you’re maybe embedded in that organization or have a long standing relationship, it’s hard to understand the nuances of what they’re looking for because you just don’t have that history of like, cool, we’re just going to come in and like, we’re going to rethink this with fresh eyes. Like when you’re starting a when you’re starting like a brand, like a startup, you’re it’s all new. So you can just really kind of take it any way you want. And then you have a really big established brand. There’s usually enough leeway to where it’s like, cool. Like, I know this language because I see it every day or in these realms, and we have room to play with. The iterative brands are good, and I would say probably most brands fit into that mark. But that’s when a really strong discovery process, having, you know, a really kind of strong stakeholders in the process, you can really kind of align on what you’re trying to create and, you know, move that brand forward. But yeah, I think they’re all engaging processes. So I don’t know if there’s one or more that I enjoy. But yeah, it’s all all stages. Branding is branding. You know, regardless of you’re changing a little bit or a lot. So, you know, they all have their benefits.
Scott: Right. Very cool. Well, so you’re, uh, you know, you’re the founder and principal of your own creative shop, uh, lofty word. And but you’ve also recently started another venture, uh, a a Remembered Life. So tell me, just talk a little bit about this project. What’s it been like for you to, like, you know, kind of put your startup hat back on? I know this is not your your first time in startup land, but, uh, how has that process been for you? And how have you liked, uh, you know, steering this brand new brand, uh, where you’re the driver and the creative director all along?
Josh: Yeah, yeah, it’s been it’s been really rewarding and fun, to be honest. I’ve been in, like you said, startup land for a lot of my career. Um, even, as you know, the founder of Lofty Word, we worked with a lot of tech startups and have spent a lot of time in product design. So historically, you know, I went to art school to be a designer and illustrator and work in 3D animation and things like that. And over the years that that turned into more print design and branding and strategy and then, you know, websites and technology and applications and all those kind of things. So it’s almost, I mean, without sounding kind of obtuse about it, it’s almost kind of culmination of all my skill sets, like coming in and understanding the nuances of product and UX, UI, user experience design, having enough technical knowledge to be dangerous. Like, I’m not an engineer per se, but I have some skill in that sense. And then with the abilities of the kind of the helpfulness of AI in this technical realm, it’s allowed me to it’s unlock my ability to actually create something and get it through to a production ready state. You know, as a creative. I’ve had a lot of ideas over the years about, oh, it’d be so cool if we made this or this would be a cool business. But with this, it’s, you know, this day and age and the technical, you know, tools we have at our disposal, I was actually able to do it. So it’s for the last two years I’ve been working on it. I launched it last year, um, and over probably the last like three months I’ve been pretty hard working on it. So we’ve added a lot of features, um, adding a lot of. So it’s, it’s from memorial service. It’s to for people to be able to create beautiful and impactful memorials online for their loved ones. But yeah, it’s it’s been it’s been very rewarding. It’s almost like I’m a proud dad to actually have something out and accomplished and people using it. And seemingly it’s it’s offering what I hope it offers to people. So yeah, it’s been a it’s been a rewarding experience.
Scott: Yeah. Well very cool. Um, yeah. It’s been fun to fun to watch. Um, so, uh, let’s jump into this. We’d be remiss not to talk about AI, right?
Josh: Sure. Yeah. Massive topic in our industry.
Scott: Um, baby’s going to take all of our jobs if you. You know, believe what you see on the internet. Um, but so talk about how you’re using it. Like what? What, uh, what impact does it having on, you know, workflow, your creative process? Um, and then, uh, eventually next we’ll talk about, like, you know, what do you think is going to happen five years from now, but. Sure. But what’s today? What? Like, you know, this has all happened. I think it feels like the last 24 months. Right. Uh, since it became. It was like, oh, look at what this chat thing can do. And I remember playing with the early, you know, uh, uh, Wall-E. Right. Uh, Wall-E.
Josh: That’s Dolly.
Scott: Dolly. Dolly. Yes. Thinking Dolly was a play on Wall-E. Uh, Dolly. Uh, and it was just like, oh, this is garbage, right? And then suddenly it just started making better and better images. And then now we’ve got, uh, nano banana. So, uh, but anyway, what’s anyway. What how how is it affecting your world now? What are you using? Uh. And, uh. What are you thinking about it?
Josh: Yeah, it’s. It’s invasive. Sounds like a bad word. Uh, it’s invaded our our lives, especially in business and technology and things like that. Um, I, I was a pretty early adopter of playing with and using it. It was, you know, two Novembers ago of when it really kind of first launched an open I launched chat, and then it became this very kind of public thing. It’s crazy how much it’s changed even on those, you know, almost two years now. Um, I use it every day. Um, I use it for a lot of different things. Generally, I use it almost as a sounding board of things that I’m working on, whether it’s writing emails, writing, marketing copy, um, helping me just look at things in a different view. If I just don’t happen to have a colleague around me at the time to to have these discussions. One thing that I’m I try to be very adamant about is I don’t go to it for brand new ideas. I try to take the ideas that I have and then help me refine those ideas. I think one of the challenges with AI is that we think it’s all knowing, and if you don’t understand a topic, it feels that way. But when you have history or expert knowledge of something like you and I do in terms of marketing and branding and design and, you know, PR, when you ask it for things, it’s like, what? That’s no way we would ever do that. That’s a horrible idea. But for someone that doesn’t have that experience, it seems like magic. So in my experience, it still doesn’t do the job that I would want it to. Like, like like the, the the world is saying like AI is this amazing, amazing thing and it truly is. But it only is if you don’t know what you’re doing. So the the problem with that is that the perception of what it can do isn’t wholly accurate. Um, you know, I think that that is affecting the creative industry specifically. Um, I’m sure other industries, obviously I’m in the creative industry, so I feel it most there. But we’ll have clients or prospects or people that we work for a long time say, why don’t you just make AI do it and like, it can’t do that. Like it doesn’t know how to do this. Um, it’s it’s not, you know, you can almost equate it as. Going to Craigslist back in the day and trying to get a logo for $50. Um, it’s just now you can get that $50 logo and you think it’s good and you think it’s going to accomplish the things, but there are so many issues with it. And it’s not to say that it can’t do good things. If you’re able to direct it and guide it and massage it and work with it to create something good. Um, but yeah, I use it a lot for we use Midjourney, a lot for, uh, photography assets or, you know, oh, we need an overview of a four lane, uh, intersection with two cars. Cool. Like, let’s see if we can generate that, and we’ll refine it and art direct it, and, you know, use it in that sense. Um, I use it a lot for as, like a coding partner for, for programming. That’s one thing that it’s helped me a lot, especially with I remembered life and other projects. If I was a better engineer, maybe I wouldn’t think it does as good of a job. I don’t know, uh, but it’s helping me get to the point where I can, you know, release projects and features and things like that. But yeah, I think it’s amazing. And I think it’s only going to get better. But right now, I don’t think it’s the silver bullet that everybody’s trying to make it out to be. Right?
Scott: Right. And I love that you’re pointing out some of the limitations. Um, because they’re definitely, you know, it’s like a user. Beware. Right. Because, yeah, it doesn’t come with a warning label. Like. And you and you have to have the lens of, like, okay, this is there’s something wrong with this answer. Right. Um, and the two two, the big cautionary things that I’ve seen is like, it’s a, you know, what they call it, a regression to the mean, right? Like, it, it is it’s it’s all knowing because it’s consumed. All of, you know, the knowledge or whatever that’s on online and, and and written whatever’s been fed to it. Right. But so, so the problem is, is it does. It does kind of what it sees the most of which means it’s just going to it’s going to produce everything that’s remarkably average. Um, you know, it’s and, you know, I’ve worked on a number of projects where we’re, where we’re developing, you know, creative briefs or best practices or, uh, you know, whatever, whatever it is. But we’re having this conversation with AI. Right. Like, as you say, which is how I use it often. Um, which. You know, just the example I like to use. Like if you’re opening a yoga studio. AI is going to be great for you because guess what? All the pictures of people doing yoga look the same and all they’re all the websites doing yoga look pretty much the same. You might have maybe there’s, you know, 10 or 20 different flavors of yoga, but they all exist, and there’s plenty of photos and copy for all of them. Yeah. But as soon as you get off the beaten path and you’re, you know, just into some, like, engineering in a very, like, tight niche, uh, you know, AI is going to have a harder time finding a lot of relevant content about that, you know, uh, subject matter. And definitely if you want to like, again, if you want to be the best or you want to, like, elevate a brand in that space, you’re going to have to do a lot of like, strategy. Yeah. And and AI is just not very great at some of that. Like again, it’s it might you could ask it give me the best practice. But the best practice still is just going to be what’s average. Yeah. For AI. And when you say no. Help me do better. Uh, you know, it’s just not going to know where to go. Like. Yeah. How to how to elevate that idea. Which brings me to my other, you know, the other headache with, with, uh, AI is you got to know when to stop because it’s so agreeable. Oh, what a great idea. You know. Oh, that’s a fantastic idea, Scott. You should do this. You should definitely do that. And and so, you know, it’s having this conversation, you know, with, uh, Laura Braden actually just the other day about, like, you gotta you keep having these conversations and it just keeps you say, hey, do this. It never says, no, that’s fine. Wait a minute. Yeah. Let’s let’s hold up. Is this the right way to do it? Yeah, yeah. You put in some coffee and you go, hey, rewrite this. And it never says like, oh, it’s just good. Like one of the, one of the interesting things that I just saw recently was. And again, who knows if it’s even real? Because honestly, at this point, everything online can be totally fake. So everything that we from from this day forward, everything that we see and digest and learn should be kind of question is that isn’t it really? Um, but the the data sources that these models have been built on obviously is the essentially the internet. Um, you know, there’s like books and things like that, but a larger than I would like percentage and I don’t remember what the percentage is, maybe 40% or something like that is Reddit and oh yes, you know, so take, take that comment with a grain of salt obviously. But like is Reddit the place for accurate, knowledgeable, descriptive, real truthful fact type information or more just opinions and nothing wrong with opinions. But is that the. Is that the source of truth that I want for my like information I’m receiving in this this AI tool that’s being generated personally? No that’s not that’s not where I think like the, the source of truth is in, in, in, you know, modern world. But again, it’s, it’s but the perception of it. And I think that’s the, that’s the takeaway that I’ve learned probably in the last year of regardless of what I think about it, regardless if I know that it’s not producing the same level work that myself or my colleagues or other agencies or other teams would do, the perception of the business owner or the individual is that it does. And I think that is the tricky thing, one, because it it disadvantages the the industry and the creative field that we’re in. But also every like you said it all, everything just kind of floats to the middle. Like if you want something that’s in some of it can be really even low to I have I have yet to see like just a, purely like a I knocked it out of the park with no knowledgeable person driving it. Um, everything is fairly like a it’s okay. It’s not terrible. But is that is that where you want your business? Is that where you want your brand is there? You know, what’s the strategy behind this? What what discovery did you do? What what values are you trying to instill into this brand? So there is a lot of work that if you know what you’re doing, AI can be a tool to help you with that. If you’re just going to AI to like, Build Me a Brand, it’s all going to be very kind of cookie cutter, not. Maybe not good. Not unique. I don’t. It’s, you know, it’s hard to say, but it’s it’s a great tool. But it doesn’t do what people want it. Want it to do yet? Right. Right. I mean, it’s just as, uh, you got. You have to know better, right? You gotta again, you gotta have an opinion. You got to know your story. And, uh, you got to know how to install those things into your brand and all all of the headlines. You know, these are just tweets, right? Tweets are BS. But, uh, you know, it’s like a nano banana just killed photoshopping. Like, no, it did not like, you know, and maybe it’s maybe it’s made a lot of progress in the last week or so. But, uh, last I say, like, I can’t say generate this image with this font, like, it doesn’t have Adobe fonts built into it, right? So I just see, like, oh, I killed Photoshop. And I’m like, yeah, you can’t, you can’t edit that image. Like, other than asking Google to edit it, like please edit that image. Yeah. Uh, you’re still going to have to take, you know, basically all we can do is now use AI to create the elements of something and then put it in a, a suite of software where we can take it apart and put it back together the way that we want it. Now, I’m not saying that that’s going to be forever, but that, you know, today, that’s the that’s the reality. Um, but let’s talk about what’s next. Like what? What do you see? You know, five years from now, uh, do you see, uh, ai further enabling, uh, things?
Josh: Uh, well, I mean, absolutely. I mean, at this point, I don’t it’s like a train that you can’t stop. You know, I think it’s. I’ve had some conversation. I mean, I’ve talked a lot about this, of course, because it’s just very relevant to what we do. But I it’s hard to say what it’s going to be like in five years and two years. And I think I think the good barometer of it is when AI or I don’t know if it was Dall-E or Midjourney, maybe, but there was a first. There was like the first picture of or video of Will Smith eating spaghetti. Have you ever seen that? Oh I love. I mean, it’s like I love like I’ve seen the the video evolved. Yeah. And then like today, it’s like a movie. It’s like like that’s Will Smith eating spaghetti. Like, I wouldn’t know any difference. So just within the last two years it’s gone so drastically forward. You know, the next five years it’s it’s almost unknowable how far it’s going to go. But is it going to still just because it can make a more realistic video of somebody eating spaghetti? Is that a reasonable barometer of what it’s going to do for the world, or for your business or for your, you know, your brand? Things like that. I, I could see there being like an AI bubble to where there’s all this hype, but it’s not actually doing what it says or what people are wanting it to do. You know, there’s just like this. It’s not producing the results that we need. And then it’s going to dip down in terms of, you know, there’s like I can’t remember what it’s called, but there’s like a expectation and it goes down to this and then it comes back and levels out, and then it becomes like a really stable, uh, tool, product, uh, experience for people to be able to use in real ways. Something of disillusion, the valley of disillusionment or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I what expectation level. Yeah, yeah. What I hope happens is that in the short term, you know, when when the AI bubble pops that the, the, the human becomes a premium again to where people want to work with knowledgeable people in different areas because they are really the knowledge keepers of these things that may never exist again. Maybe a it would just keep being better and better and better, and you’d just be like, hey, make me a video of my son bouncing on the moon for his first birthday and send it out on social media and make this flyer and it’s just cool. I’ll do that. And then that’s all you need for it. Like, you know, it’s. It’s so hard to know what’s going to come next. Um, I do think that AI is going to allow businesses and again, this is from like a brand kind of product perspective, to be super laser focused into what they want to create for themselves, to make their business better. So instead of it being like historically, you had to go and find some product, let’s say it’s shopping, product or administration or user management or whatever it may be, you had to go and find something and then maybe it fits you, and you have to work around some nuances that don’t work for you and kind of, you know, square peg, round hole kind of scenario with AI. Now businesses can just I want this very, very specific thing for my dentistry office or for my daycare. I want to create a new system that allows this. And they can just they can is a very coyote, because maybe they don’t know how to do all those technical things, but AI is going to allow really, really specialized, specific solutions and do it in a way that’s never been really feasible before. Um, and I think that’s an exciting thing, just for the business owner, for the ability to create custom solutions for your needs versus trying to find something that can make it work. Um, I think that’s going to be exciting thing about it. And it’s becoming easier and easier to do that every day. It’s still a long way off from the average person being able to do that, just because there’s a lot of hurdles and knowledge that you still need to have. But yeah, it’s exciting in those ways.
Scott: Yeah. It’s it’s you mentioned coding, uh, that you use it. It’s like a partner when you code and and I’ve, uh, I’ve been coding, uh, by the way. Um, and and it is funny because you’re like, uh, you asked the system to do something, and and for one, it is brilliant. So let me just say five coding is wonderful. And you can ask an AI to go build a thing and like you’re saying, like a unique tool for your dentist practice. Yeah. In the future AI will be able to generate those, those sorts of resources for you. Uh, but in today’s world, it does it it does both amazing things and and yet also sometimes you’ll ask it to do something very simple, like, oh, move that and it goes, I’m moving it. And then it comes back. And it didn’t, it clearly didn’t move it. And then you, then you’re left with what did you do. Like wait a minute. Like when you were spinning for five minutes and you thought and you were presumably doing what I asked you to do. It’s like, you know, we both have kids, right? So it’s like you’re you’re, uh. I swear I cleaned my room, dad. Like I know you didn’t clean your room. Yeah, but what were you doing, by the way?
Josh: Um, yeah, I can be a little bit like that sometimes. You’re just, like, not quite sure if you’re vibe cutting. And so often again, if you were a better coder than I was, often you can go look and go, what? Like, what’s it? What? Did it change? Um, but yeah, that’s I mean, that’s what I do a lot with. I remember life, um, I’ll be working on a feature or an update or something, and I’ll say, this is what I want to try to do. Let’s talk about it. Let’s figure out a way to do it, and we’ll just start changing it and making new files. I’m like, whoa, slow down, dude, what are you doing? Or and again, like, because of my technical experience, I have some knowledge of these things so I can catch it when it’s doing something that isn’t appropriate or isn’t right in terms of this full system, it’s like, well, why did don’t change that function. It’s used a million other places. Oh sorry, I didn’t know. Or so again, like the average person is never going to understand those nuances. So it’s still a little bit a ways from just. I own a tire shop and I want to create a new shopping cart system. Like, you can do it, but it’s going to be a really, really uphill battle to get it to a point that it actually works. But for someone that’s within the industry and has some some semblance of knowledge in that aspect and has some technical ability, like it can unlock so much. And one of the things that has kind of come up recently is like designer founders are becoming kind of a bigger thing now because historically, designers have all these cool ideas, can make it look beautiful, but can’t make it work. And now you’re able to do a little bit more of that with vibe coding or partner coding with AI and things like that. So, you know, again, it’s I saw I saw a meme where it was, I think it was the Spider-Man meme, where they’re like pointing at each other. Oh, um, where if they’re all just Spider-Man’s and one was like designer using AI to code and it was, uh, engineer using AI to design. And we’re both like, what are you doing?
Scott: Right? So, you know, it’s it’s again, it’s if you have inherent knowledge and understanding of a topic, I think you see the flaws in AI. If you don’t have knowledge in that topic, AI seems like this magic toolbox that can just do everything that you’ve always wanted to do. The caveat being today. And for the novice, it is like a black box.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
Scott: And you don’t know what it’s doing. Like, all I know is magic comes out the other end. I was I was speaking with a CEO just yesterday, and, uh, she was just, like, lamenting about some stuff on her website and and her email. And, uh, this is an organization with, like, you know, 40,000 members and, uh, and, you know, one of her pain points was just, you know, uh, people aren’t responding to our messages. I think maybe it’s fatigue because we send out a lot of email. Uh, and we don’t say, like, we have no segments. Like, we just send everything to everybody in a, like, 40,000 people, and you’re just sitting there like events and updates and industry, you know, uh, news and and, um, I’m like, well, clearly you just need to fix that. Well, the email is built into our website and our website where we’re doing a website that won’t be done until maybe spring of next year. And this is just one of those cases where I’m like, why are you why have you put yourself in this cage like, this is like you could fire up constant contact and I’ve got no horse in this race. Uh. Like, but come on, there’s off the shelf products that are clearly manage a 40,000 person database. And you could segment your list by next week, um, and, and accomplish your objectives. But you’ve, you know and so this these are the situations I feel like AI is really going to help us fix, even though this particular problem there’s just off the shelf products. But, um, the idea that impromptu solutions will be available. If, if, if, if you can manage that central piece which is the database, um, and go, hey, I’ve got all this data, I’ve got all these people I want, I need to be able to send and manage, uh, messaging. And, you know, I want to be able to slice and dice in this many ways to have a system where you could just ask it, hey, help me accomplish this goal and have your tools like take the form that you need to accomplish your objectives is a pretty cool reality.
Josh: Yeah. And I think that that is that within those five year kind of timeline, I mean, maybe even much sooner than that, because you can do that now. But for her where she’s like, oh, I, we can’t even do anything because it’s tied to the website, I’m sure she probably wouldn’t be able to spin up an AI solution within those things just because it’s not her skill set, but eventually it will be. And I like the idea that kind of how you put it, it’s like it’s going to be like a flexible thing, like, oh, we have this new requirement that we need to do for our business. How can we do that? How should we do that? What what’s a what’s a way that we can implement that into our current existing system. So yeah, it’s it’s very cool. I mean there’s there’s no doubt about it, it’s doing some amazing bonkers stuff. Um, but I’ve seen the. Flaws of it daily because I use it every day in terms of when you’re when you know something well, you can see where it’s not. There’s a lot of holes in its solutions or its understanding of those things. Um, but I mean, if we keep feeding it information, maybe we’ll just get better and better or worse. Uh, maybe because it’s it’s almost feeding upon itself now. It’s like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. So people are using it to create blog posts, let’s say, or marketing content. And then it’s just going to look at that marketing content as, oh, this is good marketing content. And then just repeat itself. Um, so it’s like a snake eating its own tail kind of thing, you know, who knows what’s going to be like, um, going forward?
Scott: Well, this is, uh, you know, in a world in which you second guess Elon Musk, uh, you know, beware. But, you know, according to him, like grok has already been fed all of, like, all of the corpus of human knowledge that’s already been fed to the AI. And he’s like, ah, I happened like last year. So now we have AI, like making synthetic data. And I’m like, what’s synthetic data Like. So that is the snake eating its own tail. Like, we’re. We gotta make shit up now and feed it to the thing. And I’m like, Holy cats. It is just, you know, data. Hungry?
Josh: Uh, I mean, I think if it if it if that was true and it really did have all the knowledge of the world, it would be better. It’s just that simple. Like it would have more context of history and flaws of humanity and where we’ve gone and where we’ve failed and where we could do better and what was good. Like it would just be better. But yeah, it’s it’s crazy. I mean, we’re literally living in the future. It’s just what it is.
Scott: Oh it’s nuts. Well, I mean, it’s funny your statement about, like, it’d be better because. But that’s where I just go. Well, it’s still just pattern recognition, right? Like, that’s it’s it is wicked, wicked smart. So it’s the most wicked, wicked smart thing we’ve ever witnessed from a technology. But it is still just pattern. It is just going like, oh, look at this. These things look the same. And uh, and so, you know, and my, you know, I don’t have a lot of any money on this, but I wouldn’t place a big bet on this whole, you know, generative AI thing, whatever that that’s also a moving target. Um. Uh, I think I think they’ve lowered the bar to just, uh, wicked smart AI or, you know, uh, superhuman or beyond human. I can’t remember what the term is, but, um. Yeah, but, uh, but the idea of a thinking, you know, generative AI, that’s, that’s gonna, you know, have that level of reasoning, I think is a little ways off, but but, uh. Yeah. Whatever. Give it, give it, give it everything, uh, all human knowledge and then make up some stuff.
Josh: Yeah. Let’s we’ll just make up some new stuff.
Scott: Yeah, yeah. Well, new knowledge, new knowledge have implemented. Yeah, that’s obviously a little beyond me. Yeah. Um. All right, well, before we wrap up, I wanted to play a little game with you just to have a little bit of fun.
Josh: Sure.
Scott: So I’m calling this a keeper. Kill little lightning round of questions. So not, uh, uh, goal is don’t put too much thought into it. Just whatever comes to mind, right? Um, so I’m just going to hit you with a lightning round of things, and you say so.
Josh: I’m just saying, keep it cool with no explanation.
Scott: No, you can. No. You can provide. Yeah. No, no. Provide some top of mind thoughts. Yeah, I hate that. Whatever. Okay. Get rid of it. Uh, yeah. So anyway, uh, number one Canva.
Josh: Uh, keep. I think I, as a professional designer, I do not use Canva for creation, but I think the tool itself is a really well-made tool, and it works really well for creating templates for clients to be able to keep things on brand. It obviously does a lot of other things, but from my perspective, that’s the value of it is creating brand consistency for teams that maybe don’t have a full time designer or creative on staff. Yeah, it’s like has democratized like accessibility to some needed tools, right?
Scott: Yeah. How about you say Photoshop or Creative suite?
Josh: Keep cool. Yeah, I think keep I think at this point it’s still I, I will say that every time I use it, I curse at it because I so I’m kind of a figma guy now. I use Figma for almost all UI, UX design, and I still use illustrator for more kind of detailed illustration and then Photoshop for photo editing. But there’s a big but there because it could definitely be better at this point in life. Like it? There’s so much about it that drives me insane, but I still think it’s it’s still on my keep, uh, keep list.
Scott: Yeah. How about Helvetica?
Josh: Yeah, I love Helvetica. Keep it. That’s a font. Yeah.
Scott: How about, uh, papyrus?
Josh: Oh, I think I think that one’s. That one’s an easy kill. Honestly, there’s there’s no need for that font ever. I guess unless you’re building a logo for $1 billion movie franchise, I love it.
Scott: Yes. How about, uh, direct mail?
Josh: Kill kill kill.
Scott: Uh, sketching on paper.
Josh: Keep forever. Yeah. Sketching on a tablet. Yeah. Keep. I think it’s. I think it’s an amazing toolset. If that’s your workflow.
Scott: Uh, Adobe XD does that exist anymore?
Josh: Kill. Kill that,
Scott: uh, nano banana.
Josh: I think it’s amazing. I think the name sucks, but I think the I, I haven’t played with it. Have you played with it yet? I haven’t played with it. Is it as good as it is?
Scott: It. They make it out to me. It’s fun. Yeah. Absolutely.
Josh: Yeah yeah yeah I’ll have to try it as a as a product rollout.
Scott: Let me just say uh, I loved it. Like, you know, Google basically put this thing out and never they didn’t take credit for it for 2 or 3 weeks. So just sort of like. Became this viral sensation. And then they were kind of like, yeah, that’s us. And now you can get it over here in the latest flash 2.5. Uh, Gemini. Okay. Release. Um, so yeah, um, I’ve not I’ve not done, like, as much as you could do with it. I love the idea. You can, like, give it to photos, like, here’s a woman and here’s a flamingo and put her in a flamingo dress and, like, it combines those, uh, like, synthesizes those two ideas. Yeah. Um, so, uh, yeah, it’s definitely a lot of fun you can have with it. Um. All right, um, how about minimalist design?
Josh: Oh, keep I I’m a I’m a minimalist at heart. So that’s my my love language. So yeah, I’m definitely a keep on that one.
Scott: Um, maximalist design.
Josh: I’m okay with it to keep I’m keeping everything apparently like just creative in general. Like yeah I it’s it’s not my go to but without bringing Cracker Barrel back up. But like I remember like TGI Fridays you used to have just like somebody like. Threw up artwork and it just lived there. Like this. Like crazy amount of just nonsensical pictures and photos and tchotchkes and. Yeah. Why not? I mean, it’s not it’s not what I would have in my house, but it has its place. I mean, it’s funny you mentioned Siegfried is immediately brought to mind to move the office space, right?
Scott: Um, yeah. And the flare. Right. How many pieces of flare are you? But there’s a place for it, right? You can’t. You can’t have just one piece of flare. You gotta. If you’re gonna. That’s going to be your motif. You gotta, like, go for it.
Josh: Yeah. And even I mean, there’s. I’m a big architecture guy. I mean, I just love design in general, but generally I’m mid-century modern, minimalist, kind of brutalist kind of design. But then you’ll see in like magazines or spreads of these places that are just, like, so eccentric and there’s just every type of fabric and color and painting and picture and tchotchkes and statue. And it just again, it’s not my style per se, but it doesn’t mean it’s not beautiful or fitting for that individual. So, yeah, I think in the right setting it could be really powerful.
Scott: Yeah, I, I agree it’s one of those like a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there.
Josh: Uh, yeah. Sort of things like I really appreciate it. But when it’s like I guess a tastefully done.
Scott: Right. Um, uh, or or it’s like you can you understand the theme like TGI Fridays? It’s like you, you’re there and you go, oh, yeah, I get this. Yeah. You’re creating a they’re creating a vibe. Yeah. And and again, again, that’s a harp on this. But like a Cracker Barrel. It was so funny when when I first heard like, oh, they changed the inside. I’m like, I don’t remember what it looked like.
Josh: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I don’t even know if I’ve ever been to a Cracker Barrel, so I have like zero fight in that game. So. Yeah.
Scott: Yeah. Well, I’ve, I’ve been the one, um, I mean less than a half a dozen times, but, uh. But when I saw the pictures, I was like, oh, okay, I get it. Whatever. You liked all the stuff on the walls. And now it’s kind of like an A grid and organized and kind of feels more like Denny’s.
Josh: I could see why that might be offensive.
Scott: Yeah. Um. All right. So how about, uh. Yeah, I kind of want to talk about this. Two material or flat design. Keep or kill.
Josh: So I this is probably a well, I don’t know if it is anymore. I think that Google Material Design is garbage. Um, I don’t think it’s very good at all. And that’s been a long standing opinion of mine. Um, when it first came out, I don’t know, 7 or 8 years ago, whenever it was. I just don’t think that I don’t, and I probably can’t even articulate it. I should probably have a little bit more of a, of a, of a description of why I don’t think it’s good for me just to call it not good, but an opinion I want to be. That’s what matters. I mean, I have an opinion and I’m going to say it, but I, I so I mean I’ve again I’ve, I’ve been a designer a long time. So I’ve gone through a lot of the trends. But automorphism was a big thing when web one zero or first came out where everything had to look real and there had to be texture. And I think that there was a balance between where we’re at now and what pseudo morphism was and flat design came to be. I do think depth adds a lot to understanding. I think color hierarchy, you know, placement of information, like all that stuff is like pure design principles. Like there’s ways you can do that regardless of it’s flat. Regardless, it’s real looking. I think that material design itself. Is just kind of like a weird bastardization of those two. Where it’s like, it’s like two sense of place and there’s like, I it’s I need to articulate this argument better because I sound, I don’t sound like I have a good knowledge of it. But no, I don’t have a problem with either of those styles. But I think if we’re talking about design systems and specifically the material design system for Google, I’m not a fan of. Got it. Yeah. So $1 trillion. I felt like that was they could do better than that. Wait. Which company? Google I think I think for a number of amazing, talented designers that they have that organization that should be better, right? So that always felt to me like it was their version of flat, right? Yeah. And it’s funny you bring up scooter morphism and I think I you know, I also that reminds me of just what was a month or two ago that, uh, uh, Apple goes to the glass thing and like, it was widely panned. Uh. Um, so yeah, it’s like, uh, yeah. And I think the last thing it was, it wasn’t panned because it looked like glass. It was because they had so many usability issues with it in terms of legibility of, of text on top of different backgrounds. And, you know, again, like just because it looks like glass, I don’t care one way or the other, but if you can’t read the text of a button, then that’s a problem. Like whether it’s flatter or gradients or, you know, kind of whatever. And even then, like I remember like there was like a long gradient trend for a long time, there was like a letter and then like the gradient came way up the long shadows. So, yeah, I mean, design is going to evolve. Aesthetics can evolve with the times. But I think both of those scenarios can be successful if it matches the brand, if it matches the story, if it’s usable, if it’s, you know, interactive to a point. So yeah, I think I mean, I guess I will say keep but with the Asterix of kill material design from Google, like just update that, make that different. And yeah, I’m just not a obviously not a huge fan of that very specific design system.
Scott: Yeah. No, it’s funny,
Josh: uh, well, actually into my hyper kill, uh, keeper kill segment. I think I did, I kill one thing. Papyrus. Is that it?
Scott: Uh, direct mail, you said.
Josh: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it’s like kill two. Yeah, but papyrus and direct mail.
Scott: I’m going to start sending you a direct mail or papyrus fax avatar. Just all out with papyrus.
Josh: Direct mail with papyrus. Keep that.
Scott: Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I wanted to ask you, like, uh, I saw a personal note outside of work. Like what? What are you. What are you what are your creative pursuits, uh, have you into now? I remember. Uh, I hope this isn’t a subject. I remember you were building a tree house or fort for the kids, which also looked. It just looked really awesome. So. Yeah. But, uh. Yeah. What do you, uh, what are you making nowadays that you’re not getting paid for?
Josh: Yeah. So not much. Only because I’m just so busy with other things, like rumored life and lofty word and, you know, kids with two children. So that. That keeps me pretty occupied. But, no, I still love woodworking. Um, the tree house is functional, but I won’t. I wouldn’t say it’s 100% done like most projects of that nature. Um, it’s probably 90% done. I have a little bit of the detail work to finish on the sidings and again, like without people understanding, it’s not just like a normal tree house. I can’t just build that. So it’s very modern design. It has, uh, shush. Uh oh man. I’m gonna say the name wrong Shoshu, Gabon. It’s like burnt wood, Japanese wood siding on it. Like I’m like very dwell magazine tree house. It’s a modern architecture magazine. So yeah, the the projects that I take on outside are usually intricate beyond need because I enjoy building them that way. But yeah, still doing woodworking, uh, remodeling on the house. I love doing that kind of stuff. Uh, still do, uh, jiu jitsu. I’ve been doing that for over ten years now. So that’s maybe not directly building, but it’s very creative and intellectual and physical and I really enjoy it. But yeah, generally building something or, you know, practicing jiu jitsu are probably the two, the two main ones.
Scott: Yeah, well that’s fantastic. Well, having seen that, the photos of the work in progress, I will say it was very, uh. You said you liked mid-century modern.
Josh: I did, I did.
Scott: Uh, I don’t know much about burnt Japanese, but it was very Frank Lloyd Wright.
Josh: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s cool, I love it. My son hardly uses it, which is slightly annoying, but I kind of build it for myself, too. So, you know, it’s just it used to be a fun. This would be a fun project. Like.
Scott: Yeah. I mean, it would be weird if you didn’t have kids and you built a porch or tree house, but, uh, you know, they’re a good excuse for for that creative outlet, but, uh. That’s awesome.
Josh: Yeah. Anything, anything I can get my hands on. The build, uh, is usually a fun endeavor for me.
Scott: Yeah, well, this has been a lot of fun. Uh, thank you for, you know, hopping on here and engaging in this. A wide ranging, uh, meandering conversation about AI and your work history. Uh, you know, we love working together and, uh, all the, you know, great creative juices and the steady hand you bring to our creative, uh, as always, appreciated. So thank you for hopping on and being a part of the MQTT and G10 conversation and story.
Josh: It’s been great.
Scott: Yeah, absolutely.
